INT: When we quit in the last reel, we were talking about motivating an Actor. And I had asked the question or started to about sometimes an Actor or Actress don't know themselves, how far they can go, and it's up to you, as the Director, to figure out they have on more take in them or they haven't quite achieved where you think they can go. How do you make that determination?

GR: Right. Well that’s, I think that's very true, that very often… that’s where the Director is really, earns his money, is seeing the potential that the Actor has and knowing that he or she can fulfill it and that they are somehow missing it for one reason or another. Either out of lack of perception of what they're doing, understanding of what they’re doing, holding back for some reason or another. Of course, one of our big problems in our business is time. Is the fact that we don't really have a chance, as you do with a play, to really work things through. So that’s why any rehearsal you can get is extremely important, any kind of communication like that is extremely important. I mean I just did a play, which I believe you saw--[INT: I thought it was wonderful.] THE TIME OF YOUR LIFE. [INT: Talk about that.] Okay, we can talk about that some time. But I think that what happens very often is because we're being pushed all the time, “Let's shoot now. Are we ready? Let’s go for it,” and so on, that there is not the, not the regard for the Actors, for allowing them to reach that level. Of course everybody has their own agenda: the Assistant [Assistant Director], he wants to, “Let's shoot it and move on to the next one,” right? And everybody wants to do that. There's such an imperative about being fast, about the damn schedule and so forth. And of course it's a reality, it’s something you have to deal with. I think, lately, that whole business, that whole bottom line mentality and so forth, it's even more and more enhanced, this business of schedule, schedule, schedule; let's get it through. And very often… I remember in the old days, some Director was mentioned to Ed Small [Edward Small], “Do you know this Director?” He says, “Oh I know that Director. He's very fast and bad.” [LAUGHS] [INT: [LAUGHS] That’s great.] And that’s unfortunately very true. In television, you have to be fast and good. [INT: That’s right.] Which is very demanding. But there are, of course, a lot of damn good Directors who do work fast and do very good work. [INT: The anecdote that comes to mind is a John Ford story, when somebody said, “You're four pages behind schedule--] He ripped them out. [INT: So he ripped out four pages and said, “Tell the front office I'm on schedule.”] Right, four pages back. Right. He was a very efficient shooter. He'd only shoot a scene two or three times. He'd shoot the master, he’d go in and get one close up. He didn't give them anything that he didn't want them to use. We don't do that. We shoot a master and then we shoot the whole damn thing and give them all the whatever--give them everything. [INT: And then I get into the cutting room to protect what I have.] Right, right. But it’s interesting--

INT: How do you work with your Assistant Directors [AD], ‘cause that's always an interesting problem? ‘Cause they don't often work for you, they sometimes work for the company.

GR: Exactly. As soon as a guy's on the payroll for the company, they tend to do that. Of course, the really good Assistants do what a really good UPM [Unit Production Manager] does, what the production head of a studio does; he's economical, he watches the nickels and dimes--but he knows what you need. That's the difference between a really good production head, a good UPM, a good Assistant. He says, “We've got to get it right, we'll get it and let's get it as economically as we can.” But they're aware of what you need and that takes somebody that's got a little perception and a little savvy, a little experience and so forth.

INT: Some years ago I was shooting at Universal [Universal Studios], which was known for 'hurry up, work'.

GR: Fier's [Jack Fier] boys. [INT: The what?] Well, there was a guy named Fier from Columbia [Columbia Pictures]--[INT: Oh that was Columbia.] They brought all his pupils, all his disciples to Universal. [INT: Yeah. 'The only thing we have to fear is Fier himself' is the phrase.] Exactly. [INT: I had an AD [Assistant Director] who was on the phone constantly with the front office, and he came running over to me at one point. He said, “John, you don’t have time to direct this scene.” [LAUGHS] I just looked at him, I said, “Listen, sit down. I’m going to tell you something.” I said, “You’re an Assistant Director and so far you’ve been a good one. But now you’re trying my patience.” I said, “If I don’t have time to direct this scene, you don't have time to be my Assistant. So go sit in the corner and I'll make the cut elsewhere. This scene is vital to the picture. We’re going to get it.] That’s right. [INT: And I cut it someplace else. I knew where I was.] I've had Assistants I never should have let them get away with it. I'll be shooting, it'll be at night or something, and I need a shot that's got to go into the show--It's an essential thing--and he says, “That's it; we got to wrap.” And then later on, you know, I have to pick it up someplace. The same Assistant Director, very nice guy, but when it came to… when push came to shove he would become the company and do something which is ridiculous. I said, “I absolutely have to have this shot,” and a good Assistant will recognize that. [INT: A good Assistant is a valuable member, but you put it in the exact right phraseology; he has to know what you need.] That’s right. He’s got to know what it needs to make it work, to make the show. To do it as efficiently as possible, but have an understanding and have a sense of it. Very often I have an Assistant, you're watching, and I say, “She hasn't quite got it. Let's go for one more,” and he says, “Yeah, I think you need one more.” Now that's a good Assistant. [INT: I also want an Assistant right by my side, at the camera. I don't want them wandering away. That's why you have Seconds [Second Assistant Directors] are for.] Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah. Always--[INT: Sometimes the--] Always available. [INT: We’ll get on the phone and say, “No, you stay here. Get your Second on the phone.] Right, right. [INT: But they’re valuable people. They’re valuable--] Of course, that’s a very… that’s a long strong. The Assistant you start with from day one, I mean you're prepping, you go in, you’re doing an hour show or a half-hour show, whatever. And you're in there with that Assistant. They very often alternate Assistants, so that one guy's with you and then the other guy is with the shooter. So from the very beginning in choosing locations and helping out in all kinds of ways, it can be extremely helpful.

INT: You mentioned the play you had just done, which, by the way, I was in awe of the production. [GR: Thank you.] Well, it was enormous. You had so many Actors. [GR: Yeah, 25.] 25 Actors, and you really had them integrated so well. Talk about being a play Director sometimes.

GR: That’s a good example. There was a wonderful play, SAROYAN'S TIME OF YOUR LIFE. Wonderful, wonderful material. And all the Actors involved, all the Actors that you saw in that show came out of Milton Katselas’ workshops, either in the professional class or the class that is for people that are not quite in that final professional level, but they're all professional, but the professional class is a little more experienced, I would say those people. He's got about seven or eight, but at any rate, we cast the show--all of these, they were Katselas workshop Actors. It’s wonderful. We were lucky to have John Glover, who’s a very experienced, very talented, wonderful, wonderful man. I’d seen him--he’s in the Saturday class, and a very dedicated, extremely dedicated Actor. He's working in that class; almost every week he puts a scene up. He’s extremely committed, extremely devoted and extremely ER, even with all his experience and at his age and so forth, he's still very anxious to improve. At any rate, he was not the easiest Actor in the world to work with because he had an idea of where to go and what to do and what not to do. We didn't always agree, so we had some interesting "discussions", should I say. But he's so talented and he brought so much to it, I mean it was by and large a wonderful experience for me to work with John, and I would work with him again. I would wrestle with him again [LAUGHS]. We’ll have our next fight. But at any rate, we were very fortunate. That play requires a wonderful, eccentric dancer, the part that Gene Kelly played. There was one in Katselas’ workshops, a guy named Steve Owsley who had been a Broadway hoofer. [INT: Yes, I remember.] And he could put on. There was a hoofer that you wanted to look bad. A guy that did a lot of dancing, had a lot of moves, but all of them a little corny, a little off, a little over done. So we were very lucky to find that. [INT: He was terrific.] If you don't have that, what a shortcoming you had. And then we had a wonderful piano player and that kid was an Actor, he was in one of the workshops. And he played piano beautifully and we used the piano through the piece. The other characters, we had two Kitty's and two Tom's. They double cast and they would trade off. In this town, you have to double cast in case somebody gets a job. It was impossible to double cast 25 people, because I had one guy who did about four or five different parts. He would jump into this part or that part, depending on who could or could not make it. At any rate, we had a long rehearsal period because John was working. It's tough to hold a crew, a team together. You know, he would go away and we wouldn’t shut down. But there was very little--there was only one act he wasn't in. So we would come in and do their stuff and so forth. We'd rehearse from eight in the morning until about one each day. [INT: These people worked for free, didn’t they?] More or less. I think they get, they get nominal fees. They played Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I think they got 25 bucks a weekend. [INT: Is there an Equity [Actors’ Equity] [OVERLAP]] Something… you know, not gasoline money. But they were extremely--their morale was terrific, and very professional and I adore them. They were just beautiful, the Actors.

INT: How did you get involved with doing that play?

GR: Well, I work in Katselas' [Milton Katselas] Saturday class; I direct scenes. And I’ve been doing it for years. I’ve done a lot of scenes. [INT: That’s wonderful.] We did a wonderful scenes from THE TENTH MAN and couldn't get the rights. We were going to do THE TENTH MAN here. It’s a wonderful play and Chayefsky's [Paddy Chayefsky], either the trust or the widow or whatever, the answer is no. I don't care who you are. I mean, I don't know why. I think it's a big mistake because he's got wonderful roster of plays, Paddy. He’s such a beautiful Writer and you can’t get his plays. Now, if somebody wanted to do it on Broadway, possibly, I don't know. But from what I understand, it doesn’t matter who it is. It wasn’t--I asked for myself. It wasn’t so they turned me down personally. They say that the answer is no. [INT: How strange.] Yeah, it is strange. It’s unfortunate. It’s really unfortunate. Because he’s got some wonderful stuff there. You know, MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT. I don’t know why that is, but at any rate, with the… I’ve done--I did a scene from THE HOSPITAL, which is also Chayefsky. I've done THE WALTZ OF THE TOREADORS. I've done some wonderful material. I have two scenes working right now. I’ve got a scene from THE RAINMAKER and a scene from another Chayefsky, hour television drama, called THE BIG DEAL. I don’t know if you ever saw that. Wonderful stuff. [INT: It’s not THE BIG DEAL ON MADONNA STREET?] No, this is THE BIG DEAL. It’s about a guy working, a guy, like our fathers, working on a deal, an entrepreneur, a guy trying to put something together. [INT: You know I just saw Paddy Chayefsky as an Actor.] Really? [INT: Yeah, he had a bit part in an old Dick Powell film called MURDER, MY SWEET, where he plays [UNINTELLIGIBLE].] MURDER was a great film. [INT: Yeah. And--] Chayefsky was in it? [INT: He was an Actor playing a photographer in a death scene.] No kidding. [INT: Photographing a dead body.] No kidding. [INT: Yeah, it was pointed out in one of the texts--] I mean I love that film. I love that film. [INT: Yeah, take a look at it.] I was in the service and I saw that film and I thought--I was in the Navy--and I saw that and I thought that was a damn good film. [INT: Oh, it was wonderful.] Powell was very good.

INT: By the way, did you know that Dick Powell actually served on our board of directors, the Screen Directors Guild [SDG]. [GR: Oh did he really? Did he really? Did he really?] I was fortunate enough to be on the board with him and I want to talk about your work in the Directors Guild [DGA] because, of course, you're one of our distinguished presidents. Yeah, Powell was there in the… I was the kid in the board in 1953 or 4 with people like Capra [Frank Capra] and Stevens [George Stevens]. And Dick Powell was a member of the board because he was part of… He had been directing at Four Star [Four Star Productions], a company that he owned, actually. [GR: And so he was elected to the council.] He was elected into the council. [GR: Was it the national board of the Western council?] Well there was no national board at that time. It was the Screen Directors Guild. [GR: Right. So it was…] Before we were amalgamated. But I want to talk about your career in the Directors Guild.

GR: Well, when you talk about those early days, I came having done HENNESEY, I came to these meetings. And at the meetings--no council meetings, but just the general meetings--[INT: General meeting, once a year.] It seemed to me once a year, it seemed they were more often than that for other reasons I guess, but at any rate, once a year. And at that meeting, I think--first time I showed up, I think Capra [Frank Capra] was president--it’s possible. But there was George Stevens, and John Sturges, and occasionally I guess Ford [John Ford]. I used to see von Sternberg [Josef von Sternberg] walking the halls with a polo coat, walking along. [INT: Yeah. He sat next to me a couple--] These guys, it was their club. They would drop by and they would see friends and so forth. And I was so impressed with that. Now, over the years, I observed that all the television, the young guys from television came flocking into the Guild and so forth, and it diluted that little coterie of theatrical Directors. And eventually, I don't think they dropped in anymore because they'd go in and they wouldn't know anybody. [INT: Well, some of them died.] Of course some of them died. I mean I used to see Borzage [Frank Borzage] there. [INT: By the way, you’re talking about--all those men that you mentioned were on the council and were faithful attendees at council meetings. Willy Wyler [William Wyler] used to attend the meetings. It was an incredible group. Rouben Mamoulian was constantly there.] Rouben was a big Guild leader. But at any rate, when I became president, I expressed to Glenn Gumpel, I said, “You know--[INT: Now explain who Glenn Gumpel was.] Glenn Gumpel was the executive director at the time. I said to him, you know, the thing that I recall is how the character of the Guild has changed. How, when I first came, it was very common to see all these prominent Directors, very active, speaking, standing up, speaking and so forth and clearly the leadership of the Guild and how that whole thing has changed and so forth. And I said, “It would be wonderful way, wonderful if you find a way to somehow bring them back.” He says, “Well, they're estranged because they don't know anybody.” And I said, “What if we had an evening, a theatrical Director's night.” And as soon as I said it he said, “That's it. That’s good. That’s great. We'll do it.” And so I think that's been a nice institution. It’s very important. [INT: It’s been wonderful.] And they love it. They love it because they get in there and they… And of course a lot of these guys, wonderful guys, that they show up some of these very prominent theatrical Directors show up. And there are these younger theat--and of course we do it again also in New York. In New York it's a very important thing for them. [INT: We have two of those meetings a year; one here and one there.] But it's very important, very important that we express to them, somehow, the importance of these people in our Guild because when we sit down to negotiate, I mean, the people on the other side of the table, they're looking at us, but they're looking beyond us too and beyond us are all those wonderful, heavyweight Directors who go down the line for the Guild and are there and they say, “If we don't listen to these gentlemen, that their service is going to be denied.” So we do, we do--

GR: That’s another--the aspect of the Guild [DGA] when I… And it has to do with orchestration, demographics of the council and of the national board. I used to, and I used to write some editorials on that for our DGA magazine. It was clear that, with all organizations, whether it’s the army, business organizations, any organizations tends to mature. You tend to get older and older leadership. And unless you're aware of it and do what you can, but if things are just kind of left alone, if there was nothing to counter that tendency, the leadership would become too mature and you wouldn't really be grooming people and so forth. And so the first thing I did, and it was before I became president, I suggested that with the alternates, we go from five alternates to 10. When we have a national election, guys go down and say, “Here’s Joe Jones, a big Director. I’ll vote for him, I’ll vote for him.” They tend to have those names, people that they've seen and know are active, and so they tend to get reelected and so forth. So I said, “What we really have to do is first of all, we’ve got to find some way to bring into the council younger, younger members, so that we train them for leadership.” And one way to do that, of course, since a lot of them are not electable because they're not that well known, but when you see people and you know people that are very bright, very intelligent, ethical, and have a sense of community, have a sense of union, respect union, bring them in as alternates and then they'll get to be better known and eventually they'll be elected because they're getting established. They’re recognized and they're associated with events for the Guild. And so I think that was very helpful. And we’re doing that now. And also, of course, in terms of women and minorities, and we're doing better on the Guild now. We certainly have better representation today with our Western Council in terms of women and I think we can do better in terms of African Americans and Hispanics. [INT: Well, we now have a woman president.] And we have a woman president, of course, which is a wonderful thing and a very accomplished, and very capable woman. I'm very proud of Martha [Martha Coolidge]. [INT: Well you've done a great deal to bring us along that path.]

GR: One other thing that had to do with the demographics, if I may follow-up on this, had to do with the demographics on the council, just in general. In some of the branches, some of the branches, the people who were constantly being reelected were people who were not very active--people who hadn’t been active, sometimes for, actually for 20 years, some of them 30 years and so forth. So the first move that I made, which was, I think, the most difficult move to make because it was the first one, is we went to a National Board meeting and I had a proposal. And that was a time--term limits. We introduced term limits. If you served for eight years, that would be four terms, you have to sit down for one year. It’s pretty modest, it was a pretty modest requirement, but it was met with a lot of opposition. [INT: It’s worked out very well.] Some of our people feared that it would never float, but it went through. And because that went through, it was followed up, I think under Jack Shea’s administration, with something much more decisive, which was this business of one had to--[INT: Working in trade.]--working in trade, you had to work for 30 days within seven years. [INT: Within seven years, that’s right.] And that eliminated, in one of the councils, over 50 percent of the people who were standing… over 50 percent of the people hadn’t worked in, like, 20 years. Now, you’ve got to have people that are in the trenches. You’ve got to have people coming back and saying, “This is what they're doing to us today.” And you’ve got to have young people. [INT: It’s a very important consideration. Pleased that it went through.] That was very helpful. Very healthy. [INT: Good for you. Your two administrations were very, very useful for us, I must say.] Thank you. Thank you.

INT: In preparing, do you use storyboards and shot lists?

GR: I certainly use a shot list and I do use a storyboard, but I don't do a storyboard in terms of a tableau. My staging is always kind of a planned view and I’ll have, I’ll have… if the characters names is Tom, here’s T and here’s M for Mildred, and so forth. And I'll move T and M around in a planned view, so that I'll have a sense of where they're going. But, I go in every morning with a shot list. As a matter of fact, I very often have a whole show, have a whole show mapped out before the first day. Now that show, that mapped out version may not last. It’s not in concrete. But, because I have the whole thing worked out, I have found one solution, one solution to all the details and all the elements, plots elements and circumstances that have to be dealt with. I don't say, “Well, I'll work that out on the set,” because by working it through one way at least you've confronted and found a solution. Sometimes you think of three or four; that's usually the problem. Three or four solutions for every particular scene occur to me and it's the dreadful decision of I think I'll go with one versus two or three is better than four and so forth. I work it all out. But I try to really think it all through, work it all through and have at least… so that when I come there and the Actors give you a problem or make other suggestions, at least you’ve worked it all out and say, “I can flop it over. I can go that way.” But if you really haven't gone through the whole process, I find, you're much less secure and you’re liable to overlook something. But at least, if you’ve worked it all through, at least you’ve got all the details. I know sometimes there is some small element that you are glad you held on to, glad you had worked through. Now, some very good Directors--I remember, as an Actor, I worked for Sidney Lumet in live television. Sidney always said, “I don’t work with--away from the Actors. I only work with the Actors.” But he could do that because in live, as you know, you can rehearse for three days--[INT: I want to talk about rehearsal. Let’s go back to that, but go ahead. Finish that…] We rehearsed for three days and so forth, and so that if you walked in completely cold, it was okay ‘cause you had all day, all day for several days to work it all out. And when he does a feature, Sidney has a very interesting process, which is he rehearses. He’ll rehearse for a couple of weeks. When you sign on for a Sidney Lumet show, it’s six days filming and two days rehearsing, and that’s it. It’s the eight weeks or the nine weeks, whatever it is. But he needs that, he wants that two weeks rehearsal. So what happens is that he works with the Actors when there aren’t 50 guys standing around saying--[INT: That’s great.] You know what I mean? He works. There's nobody there, except he and the Assistant [Assistant Director], you know, and the guy that’s going to go for lunch or coffee. He will do very much like he did in, like, live. He'll tape, he'll have chairs and so forth. He’ll have it all worked out and there's people that--making note, and so that when he goes back to shoot on the real location, whatever, they know where the camera is, they know all the moves, and he shoots very fast, as a result. Because of two weeks rehearsal, Sidney’s able to make his films much more economically, I think, than somebody who goes out there and says, “Okay, now where shall I start? Where’s the best background?” He’s got all that worked out.

INT: I want to ask about that, because I feel the same way about rehearsal, by the way. When I do a movie, I do pretty much the same thing. [GR: Oh, that’s great.] I rehearse as much as I can. [GR: That’s great.] But in the three-camera [multi-camera] technique, of course you're rehearsing for three days and you shoot for two, so that’s the same kind of thing. But when you're doing one camera, how much rehearsal can you get before you commit to film?

GR: Well, with one camera, of course, you go in Monday morning and you read, and then you chat for a while, you get some notes, whatever, and the Director immediately takes over and blocks the show. And what we used to do on all the one camera shows I ever worked on they would call me up, as a Producer, they'd call me up at 5:00 or 5:30 or 4:30 or whatever and say, “We're ready for you.” And I’d come down and they would run it for me. [INT: I see.] So I would see the run-through. But, so you get that one-day's rehearsal, which was very, very important. And that is helpful. In one hour, of course, there’s no rehearsal. You know, 8:00am in the morning on Monday is opening night. [INT: I know, but how much do you rehearse while…]

INT: Do you rehearse first and then give it to the photographer to light?

GR: Oh, now we're talking about the one-hour drama? [INT: Yeah.] What I do there, I have it blocked and I show the Actors the blocking. And immediately they’ll try to grab it. They'll say, “We got it!” [LAUGHS] Those hateful words. And that is, of course, a time when you say, “Just a minute, just a minute. I need--let's play with this, just a little bit. It'll help me later.” And I try to hold on to them to give them another little rehearsal; ‘cause once they do a rehearsal once or twice it costs you maybe five or 10 minutes. But it's very good for the Actors because they wake away, walk away feeling--[INT: With confidence.]--like they've got a leg up. And then when they come back, you know, if you can get them away, fine. But usually have got to go to makeup and wardrobe and god knows what. And when they come back, at least they’re warmed up. They’re into it a bit. And then you try to… I have not--I was not the fastest shooter in the world. I mean people complained about me, because I had this kind of compulsion, which I guess a lot of Directors, “It can be a little bit better. I can get her to really--really, she doesn’t really have that moment of reflection before she speaks.” You know, there’s always, there’s always something you can do better. That’s one of the toughest things about directing is saying [CLAPS HANDS], “Good enough.” You don't say that, but you might--you say, “Beautiful, love it, print it,” and we move on. But that idea of printing and moving on is the big painful decision that you have to make, to give it up without expressing it and going on. That’s a killer. [INT: I think I was like a terrier. I would never give it up. I mean I’d just say, “No, it’s not right yet. Let’s get it.”] Right.

INT: I think the better class of Directors, the ones who are hired back, do make better shows because they say, “Hey, it's not finished yet. Let’s go on. We’ll worry about that some other time.” There's always a place in the text to go faster. But when you have key moments, you better slow down. [GR: Oh yeah, there is.] And I’m sure you remember that.

GR: Yeah, that’s very, very true. There is at the same time, there is at the same time where you get to the point where you’re saying, “This is pretty damn good. Unless I take this on the road for six weeks and go to New Haven [New Haven, Connecticut] and so forth, I’m not going to get it better. I'm going to grab it and run,” because what you get--you get one element a little bit better and the other element may not be so good and so forth. So there's a certain moment where you have to say, without expressing that, “This is about as good as I'm going to get,” and go. But that's the big conflict. I'm very compulsive, I’m looking for that golden moment, I’m looking for that sublime scene where it all falls in and so forth, and you can say, “I love it.” Because I’ve gone--and we've all gone through days where you say, “Jeez, I look back on today and I’m not happy about what I saw or what I did.” Very often you go into dailies, though, and say, “What the hell was I worried about? That’s pretty god damn good.” Or I'll print take two and then print six. I’ll have two prints and I’ll say, “I could've gone with two.” That's the hell of it. That’s the hell of it. [INT: But you have to know when to pull that.] I know. Yeah, and I wish I were that smart.

INT: You and I had a unique experience. We were both Co-Executive Producers on a show called MR. SUNSHINE, which I directed and we produced, but you were in charge of the writing, and I thought you were terrific on that job. [GR: Well, thank you.] No, it was a great experience. But you had a wonderful staff working with you.

GR: We were loaded with Writers--loaded! [INT: That was the best--] We had Bob Ellison, who was beautiful. And then we had Bruce--[INT: Peter Noah was the--] Peter Noah was on it. Whenever you take over a show nowadays, they send you every--an Agent does not call up and chat and so forth. He says, “Send him the script.” So you get--you end up with a pile of scripts. And I look down this pile of scripts and one was fatter than the rest and I pulled it out. It was a play written by Peter Noah. And it was about a college or something. I said--and it was well written and I liked what I--[INT: And our show was about a college teacher.] I got him right away. [INT: He was good.] We got Bruce Helford and his collaborator at the time. So we were loaded. And then David Lloyd used to come in, didn't he? [INT: David Lloyd was our head Writer. He did the pilot for us.] Didn’t he come in and do one night… punch up and so forth? We were loaded with Writers. We were loaded with Writers. That was a very good show and the show deserved to stay on ‘cause it was unique, but again ABC... [INT: They became frightened. We did about 15 shows, something like that.] We did some very good shows. And after they dropped us and so forth and it was running, it began to gain, began to catch up. [INT: Always late.] Always late. [INT: I had that one--] Had a wonderful cast. [INT: Weren’t they wonderful?] Wonderful cast. [INT: Boy! God almighty, that was…] We had a wonderful cast, so… [INT: Try to think of names. We’re both having a senior moment.] Terrible. Jeremy… [INT: Jeremy… No, not Jeremy. [LAUGHS] I’m thinking of Jeremy Kagan.] No, he’s a friend. He’s a good friend. A wonderful Actor. [INT: He was also with the Katselas [Milton Katselas] group.] He was. He hasn’t been there recently. [INT: Why are we suffering with this. It is Jeffrey Tambor--] Jeffrey, Jeffrey… Jeffrey Tambor was the guy. [INT: --was our lead. Was wonderful. Was it Barbara [Barbara Babcock]…] Never can remember her… [INT: No, no, no.] It wasn’t Baxter? Barbara… [INT: Barbara. She’s a wonderful, wonderful second… And of course the guy [Leonard Frey] from New York who subsequently died. We’re terrible, you realize that don’t you?] Awful. [INT: Jeez. All I remember is I saw him on Broadway playing Motel the tailor in--] Oh really? In--[INT: In FIDDLER [FIDDLER ON THE ROOF].] FIDDLER, yeah. [INT: And why can’t I think of his name, because he was--Leon. He played the part of Leon and he was wonderful.]

INT: Anyway, we had a great cast, but, I was indebted to the writing [on MR. SUNSHINE], which you controlled. It was the best time in my life for getting scripts on time and good.

GR: Oh good. That business of getting scripts on time, I was always meticulous about that on LOU GRANT and M*A*S*H and so forth. A Director came in, he always had a script on his desk [INT: They don't do that anymore.] I know. I think it’s a terrible mistake. When I would freelance directing, doing some hour shows and so forth, I would be two or three days into prep without having a script. [INT: How did you do that?] It’s a big discipline. [INT: When I freelancing, you know, in my later, my late part of life when I was still working a lot, I would do an occasional half-hour television show, usually with multiple cameras, which I do a lot. And there’d be a request for a run-through on the first day!] Oh I know, I know. [INT: And I would say, “What do you run-through on the first day? That the Actors are carrying books? And they would say, “Oh, we’ve got to hear…” Okay. You’re hearing the same thing around the table. Give me a chance to work with them and we’ll show you something in a couple of days. So what would happen is the Writers would see a run-through that--well of course they’re not getting any performance. They aren’t getting anything of Actors--] So they do a rewrite. [INT: So they go to a rewrite that night and the next day you’re confronted with a brand new script and we’re starting again from scratch. Now when I was doing FAMILY [ALL IN THE FAMILY] or DICK VAN DYKE [THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW], I had three days when nobody would bother me. And we worked that way--] Right, that’s right. [INT: -- when Writers never came by and I’d say, “Here it is,” on Friday night. “Take a look and see what you think.] That’s right. [INT: But by then, the scripts were out of our hands, the Writers process had been allowed to work and today's television, in my view, is that the Actor's process is overlooked, completely. And he says, “Here, read this.” And they go right on. And it’s probably due to in some degree, because of the modularity of television editing now, you can slip in a line. You know, “We'll fix it n post.”] Yeah, perhaps. [INT: It’s nonsense, nonsense.]

INT: So what do you deal with that, when you have no script, how in the world could you--how can you cast if you’re casting a new piece?

GR: Oh, you can cast because generally you know what the character is and so forth, but that will vary, that will vary sometimes because the part may vary. The part may not turn out nearly as well or as interesting as it actually comes through. See, very often you'll have a script, but they'll say, “Don't pay attention to it; we're throwing this or that out.” One of the problems that I see too is that very often because of their dependency on the Writer, the Writers become Producers. In practically all television shows, the Writer is the Producer. [INT: But they don’t produce.] ‘Cause they don't produce. They really don't know the process too well. But the people that know how, know what the physical demands are, what the actual… and the artistic demands in terms of rehearsal and in terms of how much material to shoot and so forth and so on. There are people there that know, but they’re not listened to. They don’t have any power. The person that’s in charge, which is the Writer, very often will say, “Well,” you’ll say to them, “This show,” and I’ve done this, go in and said, “This show is going to be eight minutes long, be eight minutes long. If we can cut down, cut four minutes out of it, then I can give you the coverage you want. I can work--I can give you a much better show.” I like to have something to play with. [INT: Exactly.] And that, of course, that is a difficult problem. And that comes eventually from the networks who don't really understand what it takes to make a show. What it takes to get the thing made properly. And therefore they're saying, “Well, this guy's a hell of a Writer and he'll give us scripts, and scripts are the whole thing and so forth.” The scripts are essential, they’re extremely important, but you should have, ideally, a combination of somebody who is the Writer-Producer, but also knows how, has a respect and a sense of what the problems of the Director is or are and the problems of the Actors, the problems of production, which unfortunately they don’t know.

INT: What happens is that dismal word you just used, I need something to play with--[GR: To play with, right. I want something to play with.]--results in some of the worst editing that anybody could go “How do you take all those minutes out?”

GR: That’s right. Because when you--if you have to go through all that… If you have too much script to shoot, you tend to shoot something in a piece that can't be edited unless you make some cut that bleeds. So you end up with not as nearly a good a show. I always was very careful. And I eventually found out on LOU GRANT that I think 51 pages, 52 pages was plenty. When I came in with 60 pages, which I did the first couple of shows, I realized I was way over. And so I usually could measure because you couldn’t get a--very difficult to get a Script Supervisor--Script Supervisor should be able to time the show. But there was a very interesting thing. The Producers negotiated with the Scripts Supervisors and when they came away from negotiations, the Producers said, “We get a timing with whatever compensation.” The Script Supervisor says, “No, no. The timing is extra.” And so my Producer at MTM [MTM Enterprises], Arthur Price, a wonderful guy, who was on the damn committee of negotiating, so he says, “Oh, we get the timing.” But the Script Supervisor on the set saying, “No, you’re going to have to pay me extra.” He says, “No, we won’t pay extra.” So I said, “Pay the, pay the guy. Pay the two dollars,” because when you go over, it can cost you 10, 20, 30, 40, $50,000 worth. What you throw away sometimes if you’re way long, you know, you’re throwing away a day’s work. [INT: Yeah, but they never understood that for some reason.] That’s right, that’s right. [INT: I don’t understand how those people function frankly.] Well, while you’re thinking about that, we’re going to take a break. [INT: Oh, whoopy.]